What do you understand about the market that other people are missing? That's your message. That's interesting. That's where we're gonna get pr. That's where we're gonna get residents. Is like, what do you quarter understand? That differentiates, and I think that really ties into podcasts.
Casey, how's it going? It's going brilliant. It's going brilliant. So we finally meet. We do, We do. Yeah. We've had some back and forths through the years, but yeah, it's cool to meet person here. So, yeah, I mean Casey is obviously head of growth at Bon Jo, but you actually so much more than that, aren't you? ? I do have a couple plates in the air.
So I do run growth for technology company. Um, Bon Jo. I also teach content marketing at university, so I run a class, um, at U C S D, which is local. I live down in San Diego, California, so that's local to me here. I do some institutional consulting, so I work with a number of different firms from McKinsey to BlackRock, a handful of others, GLG Guidepoint, Maven.
Basically around SaaS pricing, SAS churn, a lot of different like trends around growth. Kind of a lot of different topics, but around kind of the MarTech space and around the SA industry. And then I run small course business on the side as well. So those are a couple of the kind of pillars. So this book one I kind of wanted to dig into a little bit as well, which is I labeled in our show notes here, The Hustle.
And because I see you like everywhere and I've seen you everywhere for. Three years. And so I just wanna dig into this strategy first. Understand maybe like why, and then the how, and then also the what. Cause maybe people don't know the what. So let's start with what, and then the why and then the how, so that's okay.
Yeah. So I guess in terms of, there's a couple of kind of, I guess, dimensions of it. Number one is I think that the work that I do has a lot of cross-pollination. So one of the things I first tell people when I'm kind of talking. My overall load. Cause they're like, you're doing four or five different kind of business responsibilities, is that everything kind of informs the other pieces.
So my experiments in growth. Become the things that I consult around and that I teach around, right, and that I build courses around. And similarly lessons that I take for my consulting. I also then back apply to say my social media strategy, so that becomes part of my personal brand when I post stuff on social media.
I also am a person who believes a lot in the importance of a distribution strategy. And part of the distribution strategy for me is that I repurpose a lot of content across a lot of different channels. So when I post something on. It also goes to say four to five different Facebook communities. It goes to three to four different subreddits.
It goes to Saoc, it goes to demand curve on Slack, it goes to a whole handful of different channels, and the formatting of that might be slightly massaged, but it's this idea that instead of having a post that might do 15, 20,000 views, We're gonna get a hundred to 150,000 views outta that same piece of kind of core content.
So I guess one of the ways of kind of balancing across these different channels is having kind of a game plan around that. Okay. So I think that's part of the how the backing up to the first one, which is the why. This is, I think you mentioned personal brand. So this is basically building up your permission assets on those channels with like Reddit, Quora, LinkedIn, and so then I guess you take that attention and then you can drive it to Bonura if you want, or you can drive it to the course.
Is that the strategy? Yeah, exactly. I think that you, What I've found is that having all these different pillars has given me really like a wide. To drive traffic, both for like the businesses that I'm working at full time, like Bon Jo, as well as personal things that I'm running, whether that's course business or teaching opportunities.
Again, like everything kind of opens doors for the other pieces. Last year I worked with a company called Cxl. They flew me out. I recorded courses for them. That's actually what got me in my teaching position at U C S D. I said, I've done a bunch of work in the content marketing world. Look at the stuff I did with cxl, and I've opened many opportunities for my consulting.
Where I say, Hey guys, like I was actually just working with a company preparing for a series A. This is what we went through. They were in a very similar situation. We can do the same thing for you. And so there's this heavy cross-pollination. And so for me, it's almost like this idea, I guess in my head of how do I have that whitest net?
How do I have revenue stability? So if my day job disappears tomorrow, I still have all of these other things that I can lean into, and how do I build the network of the people in the industry and the space that I. Which I think is also done by having kind of like my hand in all these different buckets.
So I guess in terms of like the why am I doing it, that's I guess some of the reasons. Got it. Makes total sense. And do you think, just to clarify, like the audience that you're building, say in content marketing, would they also be potential Bonger users? I think they probably could, right. We should explain what Bonger is quickly.
I. Yeah, so Bonura basically is a tool that does a couple things. It does personal one to one videos. So say some, a lead opts in a little thing pops up on your phone and you can respond to them. With's, kinda like branded one to one video. Create that engagement. It also helps you gather testimonials so you can gather like video testimonials from people.
So that's kind of what that's about. And when I'm talking in the markets about things like. Things about personalization, things about like building relationships, customer lifetime value, All of those can be kind of connected back in different ways to things like Bon Jo. Cause if you're trying to build more trust, if you're trying to have a more human brand, if you're trying to reduce churn, et cetera, et cetera, those can kind of plug back.
But I. As you know, if you kind of followed my content, try to be very non, I'm a very like non directly promotional person, right? I don't go like, Hey, if you're trying to solve problem A like plugin bon zero, that's never been what I've found to be like an effective content strategy. Instead, I try to like explore a different area and if that leads to people contacting me and saying, Hey Casey, this is awesome.
Like I see that you run growth of Bonura. What's Bonura about? Oh, let me tell you it's about this. And then that kind of like leads naturally to that converts. So a lot of times I'll find like this happened, There was a Facebook community, I think it was called, Nothing Held Back, haven't been super active recently, but I started posting just a bunch of stuff about my consulting work and got hundreds and hundreds of inbound messages for people that were just like, Tell me more about what you do, what's going on the most that I've ever gotten from any community about like a big margin.
So that was like an example of how you can kind of get a little bit of that inbound. That comes to you like asking more about like, Hey, loved your insight on this, and then just kinda like them initiating that conversation. How many hours a day do you work? I would say on average, probably 10 if I had to like estimate, because Bulger's like full time, right?
And then you're doing all this other stuff. So you're just like super productive? Yeah, I mean, usually what I do is I have a slot in my mornings that I do my consulting work, so I'll get up. So if I start my standard day at like eight 30, I'll get up at say 6 37. I'll start the process of doing some of my consultant slots in the morning, and then after work is usually when I will check over course business stuff.
I'll have open office hours. For my university class, which is only held, which is only twice a week, and then sometimes we'll do consulting gigs there as well. But I would say on average, probably around 10 hours. So not like my wife is a physician. She went through residency and I saw like the 90, a hundred hour weeks that, that's like a whole different level that I don't profess to.
But I think that one of the reasons I'm able to keep it at that zone of like an additional, let's say like 10 to 14 hours. Outside of just like my core work is again, because of how much cross-pollination there is. And I think that's like one of the things I try to emphasize for people, especially when I'm talking to people through distribution strategies, is this is a lot more accessible than you might think it is, right?
Cause it seems crazy, but it's like if you run a growth strategy, And then you just catalog exactly how you did it right Then it's like, I can take that and I can make a course outta that. I can take that. I can make a lecture at university outta that. I can take that and I can shop that for a talking appearance and say, Hey guys, this is the exact structure if you want me to walk through that with your community.
They're like, Yeah, that sounds awesome. So there's all these kind of possibilities from just taking that one experie. And then leveraging it widely. Makes sense. So where do you think this ends up in like five years? You're just gonna have a shed load of attention and then you can do whatever you want.
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. . I think at this stage it's really about what I found and one of the reasons I started doing more teaching stuff. I mean, teaching as a disclaimer, pays absolutely abysmally relative to things like institutional consulting as an. But just trying to find things that I'm passionate about that I enjoy that are like uses of my time, that I'm getting a large amount of like satisfaction in return.
And so I think I'm gonna continue to follow that and by each chapter of life, that might change some chapters. I might be certain super into. Like a couple years ago I launched a Kickstarter. 400%, 800% funded it. I apologize. And was like really focused on that. And we've dialed quite a bit back cause I just don't have the bandwidth to focus on e-commerce business right now.
But at the time, that was like two or three years when I learned so much from learning, shipping and distribution and how to work with partners and how to get into retail and how to work with countries that have crazy shipping situations. Cause we're shipping to like 30 countries and. I take each of those as kind of lessons and it's like I don't run that e-commerce business anymore, but when I consult with clients that are in the e-commerce space, I now have so much of a more robust understanding of how fulfillment and logistics and all those things work.
And so they kind of like build on that foundation a little bit, I think. Makes total sense. So where would you say right now is the best opportunity in the B to B space To get cheap or free attention. Yeah, it's a good question and I think it can sometimes depend on the actual business. One of the things that I'm a huge fan of is podcast Guesting actually as a way to drive attention.
It's something that our team has done somewhere between 350 to 375 podcasts now in the last two years. So I reckon that's one of the higher marks of companies kind of in our space. That's massive. Even just for the back links, Right? It's been remarkable. I mean, yeah, from the back links from, we actually look at people, we ask people when they sign up for our trials, How did you hear about us?
And our third highest source of paid attribution, so not even trials, but people that actually end up becoming paid is people that put podcasts. And so people all the time talk, like, I've had many people that have interviewed. They always focus on the awareness stage. And that is a, like a part of it for sure is like you start by getting these eyes, but we actually are getting downstream sales.
We're getting sales directly attributed. And the remarkable thing is we did a huge push in 2020. We did all like, I think it was like 218 podcasts then we actually stopped for a little while cause we're like, we wanted to try other levers and like, it was like we had done a lot of podcast. We kicked it back up earlier this year.
I think it was like maybe two to three months ago. We did another push booked another, I think it was like 40 podcasts. And when we did that, two things that are interesting to note. Number one is when we took the break, we still saw it as the third highest source of paid attribution, 30 to 40 paid accounts every single month through 2021, which is pretty remarkable.
It shows that incredible long tail. And a lot of times people would say, Oh, well what kind of podcast do you go on? Is it just small ones? Is it big ones? And we went really wide cuz what we found was that if it was the right host, even if they were small, we were the first three podcasts, one of the first three episodes on, I think it was like, I forget the exact number off the top of my head, but I wanna say something to the tune of like 30 podcasts outta that bundle.
So like 10%. But many of those went on and grew and got larger and a couple of those became like top 5% podcast. Over time. And so we kind of hitch our star and I think that a lot of long tail effect even from working with some of those smaller players through that. So I'm a huge fan of using that as a channel and really focusing on what I call kinda like keystone beliefs.
Cuz when I sit down with companies, what I first wanna talk about is so many people are like focused on product, they're feature centric. And I wanna say like, what do you understand about the market that other people are. That's your message. That's interesting. That's where we're gonna get pr. That's where we're gonna get resonance is like, what do you poorly understand?
That differentiates, And I think that really ties into podcasts. Cause when I talk about this, I'm like, Look, if you're gonna pitch yourself to be on a podcast, nobody wants for that podcast episode to be a product promo. And if that's how it comes across at all, they're not gonna have you on. That's not the conversation they wanna have.
They wanna have something that is a unique insight for their. To walk away with some sort of knowledge and some sort of takeaway. And so podcasting fits really nicely into that. Cause if you have good keystone beliefs, then when you pitch people, you'll be pitching them interesting angles and the same kind of stuff.
If you wanna go to Forbes or Fast Company or Entrepreneur Inc. And you're trying to get PR exposure, it's actually the same type of messaging often that is interesting for a podcast host that would be interested for that PR outlet. So you get that repurposing effect as well. We need to dig into. So d say three 20 over three years?
No. Yeah. Three 50 to 3 75 over three years. Amazing. And that was you and the ceo, right? I think we booked your CEO on a couple of shows. Anyone else in the team? Our CMO did a few, so I'd say our CMO maybe did like, I'd say maybe 30 to 40, and then the rest would be the CEO and myself. And I assume the process for booking you and the CEO on these shows evolved over time, but right now do you have like a full time person just responsible for booking you on or how do you run that?
Yeah, so we have, so we built a process, like I built a course around kind of like my overall flow and we've had I interns that now like come in and will help with that side of the process, depending on the chapter. Like we basically had me running it complete. Then we had a pass off towards the end of 2020.
We had an intern who eventually we hired and became part of our marketing team who did that for about three to four months. Then we took a pause, right? So during 2021, most of 2021, if not all of it, we basically weren't doing podcast pitching. And then just a couple months ago, we kind of kicked this back up, and when we kicked it back up, I was the one who jumped in first.
Because I kind of wanted to see like have we kind of saturated this? Like are all the good podcasts to be done kind of already done. And then I did it and I was like, No, this is great. Like it still exists. There's still a ton of good podcasts that are relevant. And so I was the one who kind of kicked that off.
If we're to continue with it, I think that we'll definitely do another pass off situation and have someone follow that. It's a, I definitely think you can create a process and you can have someone follow it. I will note there is some nuance. There is a little bit of benefit to when I look at a podcast in the B2B SAS space, almost always I recognize guests and so it really helps because I can hop in and I can say, Oh, you know, its really interesting.
Nick mea, who's from Gainsight, I actually had him on my podcast, LTV University, three months, and I get that like personal hook that's a little bit harder for like an outsourced person to do. I think it is still possible, but there's a little bit like if you're trying to optimize at the very highest level, having someone with a little bit more experience does.
Yeah, that's kind of how we run that or how we have run that. So we're gonna customize the outbound email. We're also gonna give the, and I wrote this down in terms of topics. We're gonna share what we believe the most people in the market don't believe. And so something different to cover. And then are you like guaranteeing any per, Are you like, I'll share on my LinkedIn, or do you put anything else in that pitch?
Yeah, absolutely. So here's how I kind of think about, I'll walk you guys just very quickly through kind of the process that I like to use. So first I use a platform called Listen Notes. Um, there's a couple other, you can do it on Spark, Toro and a handful of others. The key is you need something that I think gives you contact information, cuz I find that it's much easier when you have contact information to really have a robust pitch versus going to LinkedIn, you're limited to 300 characters, whatever else.
So that's first. Find a system that helps you do. And if it has good filters and ability for you to sort by different topics, that's great. Okay, so that's number one. You find the people that are relevant. Then I like to always open with a personalized hook, so something that basically references, like I kind of mentioned a couple moments ago, like an episode.
You watch through an episode, you have some feedback. You say, Hey, I really like when you guys were talking about Facebook ads and this or this or this. I've actually had an experience, blah, blah. You have that personal hook. Now I wanna tell people don't just write an intro that says, Hey, love your podcast.
Been following for whatever amount of time. People see that as bs. They get a ton of pitches that just say, like, love your podcast. Make sure that you actually have something that shows that you've done at least a bare amount of diligence to understand. So that's number one. Is a hook, a clever thing that I've seen shared with me.
When I was building my course, I asked a lot of the hosts for the best pitches they had ever received. One of the ones that was shared with me I thought was very clever that they shared at the very top, and we left a five star review and they actually attached a screenshot of it right down below. I thought that was really smart because.
One of the things that every podcast hosts out their values is getting reviews. And so right off the bat you're showing I'm adding value to you. So that's the opener right after that, the middle, I kind of think of that as like the authority building piece. So like, why you, Why are you an interesting person?
And this is where you can kind of like, whether it's for yourself or someone you're trying to promote. Talk about that person's credentials, talk about their accomplishments, talk about the growth of your company, whatever. This is where you kind of are trying to see that like I'm an interesting person, or the person I'm promoting is an interesting person.
That's the middle. The final part is where you list specific topics that you can talk on. I like to do this by bullets, so having say two to three bullets of very specific topics, and this is again like kind of the keystone belief thing. Things you understand in the. Other people might miss. So I'll give you guys an example.
One of the ones I used in my last phase was I said website reviews. How often have you gone to a website, read a little one quote that said, Had an amazing time with whatever, and then like made a buy decision, right? Like almost nobody. We don't trust those. They seem like they're just finesse. So what could you do that would be better?
So I talk about long form reviews that actually have context that walk through specifics. I talk about using video, I talk about all the different things that could be basically testimonials or reviews that actually drive conversion. Now I run a company that does testimonials and so my product is connected on the backside, but I don't talk about that at all.
I don't mention Bon Juro testimonials. At any point in that pitch, I just talk about what I think is an interesting topic, right? Or another example would be I would talk about the experience economy and how like we're in this new experience economy where. I share an example in my pitch where my wife and I are looking at a place to stay and we find like a tent in, uh, Palm Springs.
It's like a fancy, they call it glamping. So it's like this fancy tent that they're doing for like $250 a night and it's booked out for months. And I'm like, Isn't this crazy? Like they're able to charge this much because we live in this world of experiences where people wanna take an Instagram photo, and that's an example of something that, So I bring these topics up that are interesting, and when someone thinks about experiences, it's like, Oh, well my product sends these one-to-one videos, stand out and kind of create this like interesting welcome experience.
I'm always having this tie in back to the product. But that's not discussed in the pitch at all. That comes out in the actual conversation as. Right, but the key is that the topic is just independently interesting and that I think is the important piece. And so you have that format of the personal hook building credentials and that bottom part where you recommend specific subjects.
That is what I have found has gotten me the most traction and kind of response rate. Got it. Makes total sense. Podcast guesting 350. Incredible. Really incredible. So, moving on after podcast guesting, what would you say is the second best place to get cheap slash free attention in the B2B world? Yeah, and then the reason I'm, I'm kind of like hedging or hesitating slightly is I always try to be really candid with people.
Like so many different channels can be so tied in to your niche. And you're a specialization, right? So sometimes it's like a situation where a company with like a really high average contract value that has like a really complex kind of model is gonna thrive on completely different channels than another one.
So that's why I hedge a little bit. But one that I think is interesting for people to look at because it's a little bit under, I think given attention, is Quora. So Cora is basically a question and answer platform. It's something that I've accumulated millions and millions of views and opened up a lot of opportunities over time.
And what's interesting about Cora, So first, if people aren't aware, it's basically a question and answer website. So someone can ask a question like, How do you convert more trials? For B2B SaaS, or what is a good churn rate for a company of insert sides, they can ask questions. And so there's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of these questions out there.
And then people can come in and they can answer them. And because Cora has this huge wealth of information, their content actually ranks quite well from an SEO perspective that people are trying to find answers online organically. And so Cora, the way I kind of think about it is when you're choosing a.
You have kind of two metrics. You have competition and you have. Okay, so impact is like how many eyes, how many opportunities, how many things can that drive? And so if you look at a platform like LinkedIn, LinkedIn I find has really high impact, right? There's a lot of opportunities on LinkedIn, but LinkedIn also has really high competition.
There's a ton of players on LinkedIn. Everyone in the B2B space knows LinkedIn. So what I like about Cora is I think relative, if I was to put it on an impact scale, Cora is definitely below LinkedIn, but its competition is astronomically. Right. So when I work with people, whether they're advertising on Cora or whether they're posting organic content on Cora, the competition is substantially lower.
So I think of it from a perspective of if you're building content, step one, you can take content you're already building and you can type in find questions that are linked to. And then basically just reshare that content, answer those questions. So it can be relatively low time allocation for you to start producing inside of this core machine.
And there's a lot less competition. You know, it's people like one of the first really big people was a guy named Jason Lempkin, who is a popular vc. He runs Saster and he has, I don't even know what it is now. I mean, something crazy, like 200 million plus views on co. And he gained this massive footprint because again, it was this kind of like open ocean where there was, there was just not a lot of players.
And so when I've talked to Jason about that, he's talked about how much business that they gained through being one of those kind of like entrants in a spot that doesn't have a lot of competition. So I think number one, getting on Cora, answering questions, repurposing stuff is really valuable. What I'll tell people about Cora, which is honestly true of a lot of channels, is what thrives is like a narrative.
So what you should not do, what I'll tell you won't work is don't just republish your blog articles. The temptation to like take blog articles and republish it. When I see repurpose, I'm referring more to like if you were to do a personal narrative post on LinkedIn, that type of content also done over on something like Cora I think can work.
But don't do something that's just like this bulleted thing that feels very structured, that feels like it's something that you would read on a blog. That's not what thrives. People wanna see like your. And people wanna see firsthand. So it's like share firsthand experience, share what you've actually done, what you've actually experimented, the results that you've seen.
And I think it's a really powerful platform for that reason. And the other thing I'll say on this too is that in Cora you can actually reach out to people. You can actually message people. Now if you imagine something like LinkedIn, people get hit with so many messages. I can't tell you guys. I mean, I delete an ungodly amount of inbound that I get on LinkedIn every single day because, I'm just flooded with it and it's, I don't have the mental bandwidth to kind of go through and deal with all of these things.
On Cora, there's so much less competition. It also means that when you reach out to that VC or that big CEO or that higher level player, your chance of getting responses are way higher. And I initiated many conversations with CEOs that would've not connect running multi-billion dollar companies that would not have connect.
On a LinkedIn, but did connect on Cora because I'm probably one of maybe five messages instead of one of thousand. All right, let's do one more, One more channel. I mean the other channel, if I was have to like drop in. Another one that I'm definitely a huge advocate of is partnerships. So partnerships have been instrumental to the growth of bonial.
When I say partnerships, there's kind of two sides of this. There's collaborative partnerships and there's also integration partner. So integration partnerships was we went to Active campaign and we said, Hey, active campaign. We have currently, whatever it was to start with, I wanna say maybe like 200 users.
We have 200 of our users that we, that have put that. They also use Active Campaign, like the demand is there. We'd love to build a deeper integration to do more stuff with you. Fast forward today, we have thousands of mutual accounts with active campaign. We've done webinars with them. We've created 30 plus content pieces with them.
We've done so much work and we've really deepened that integration. And it started by us basically using a tool called Crossbeam. Crossbeam shows you mutual customers between you and another tool. We basically used Crossbeam. We said, Look, there's some mutual usage right now at the top, we used active campaigns, open API to build a simple integration.
So we could have that as a starting point, and that became a launchpad to open up so many other opportunities. We've done this with Keep, we've done this with HubSpot, we've done this with Shopify, so many different players, and we've been able to tap into those ecosystems of huge, right? Obviously multi-billion dollar companies on the back of the fact that we basically just started with an outreach and like, Hey, let's do some collaborative work together.
So integration partnerships, I think can be huge, especially if we're talking about B2B SaaS. And then also just collaborative partnerships. We do so many different collaborative partnerships with people in the space, and I do this both at Bon as well as with my course business and tons of other type of work that I'm doing, which is just where's their mutual benefit?
Where do we have shared audiences that would benefit from us doing something together? And the more creative you can get with it. We worked with a company, a SAS company called Design. And we made this like crazy quirky video where it was basically like a love story between our mascot, which is a bear and their mascot, which is a pickle, and it's the silliest, weirdest thing you could imagine.
But the reality was they had a certain competency, which is they had an amazing video team. So they had costumes, they had production, they had a whole scripting software. And my background is like, I'm a storyteller. I like telling stories. And so for me it was like, this is a perfect fit. They have the ability to execute on that story.
I have the background in writing the story, and we teamed up and did a really successful collaboration that drove a ton of eyes. So I would say that if people are looking for a channel look for, and this kind of actually feeds to everything we've been talking about before, look for this concept of amplifi.
So look for this idea of how can I take this core message that I have and get it in front of substantially more people? Right? When you're guesting on a podcast that has 20,000 listeners, you're amplifying your message, right? When you're going on core LinkedIn with these different channels, you're getting access to this network.
And again, there's this amplification effect. So I think many people start and they're kind of trapped within their own ecosystems, their own blog, their own email newsletter, their own pieces. And I think it's super important to have that amplification. To me, when I look at it, it's like you wanna have, when you build your own asset, right?
Like let's say as an example, you build your own podcast. Super important to have your own assets. That asset will take time for you to realize, right? When you want it to be like an amazing top 1%, that might be three years, right? For you to build that up. So you should do that because you wanna have control over that asset.
But if you're looking at this quarter, How do I maximize return for this objective? You also wanna be looking at those amplification opportunities. So I think it's kind of having this healthy balance of both helps you hit your growth milestones in the best way. There we go. Nice. The three. Cheapest ways to get attention in b2.
Casey, thank you so much. As I said at the start of this episode, I appreciate the hustle. I love seeing you everywhere and I look forward to seeing you everywhere more. We'll link to everything you mentioned along with all of the projects, but of course, people can. First Casey Hill in LinkedIn follow you there.
They can go to bon jori.com, I believe. Yep, exactly. Yeah. But then we'll link to courses, et cetera or below in the show notes. But Casey, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me, Tom.
And thank you so much to Casey for jumping on and sharing those three cheap flash free ways to get attention in the B2B world. I want to give a shout out to Adam, a Vlogs who left this review. On Apple Podcasts. Can't wait to continue listening, learning, and improving to grow my own podcast. Thank you so much, Adam.
And if you are listening, would like to get a free shout out in the outro of the show, go to Apple Podcast, leave a rating and review. Send me a screenshot, Viton, or somewhere via email, and I'll get you a shout out on the show. Of course, we need to give a shout out to the show sponsor, HQs Webmaster Tools.
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